Curse

atreyu83 · Jan 12, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

I have been listening to much debate about this skill. Usually the argument of whether or not it is overpowered, my answer would be yes and no.

PVE: This skill is balanced imo. You often run into a situation were you ZB an ally at the same time he is being healed by another monk player/hero thus overhealing and screwing you out of your 10 energy. The balance shifts from balanced to overpowered once aegis and GOLE is added to the equation.

PVP (4vs4): Definetly overpowered aproaching "broken" no elite (for a lone healer) comes close to the power of ZB in 4vs4. No need to worry about somoene else healing ur target, no need to worry about spike. The current ZB monk i run in randoms i find as effective as my old boon prot.

PVP (8vs8): I consider it balanced. Some risk of overheal if 2nd monk heals ur target depends of course on how well you guys work together. Big drawback is letting allies dip below 50% which more risky in gvg than anywere else.

Bottom line i would leave ZB alone. You cant make skills balanced in every situation between pve, and all the pvp modes. I dont think being overpowered in 4vs4 should make any skill a target of the nerf bat.

Saider maul · Jan 13, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

I Am mixed as well. Prot needed some kind of direct heal. I view it almost like an elite infuse without the sac. I honestly think it should heal for about 30hp less.and maybe to balance it out scale the percentage like 25-65% to balance the reduction out while keeping some form of Emanagment.

The recharge i feel needs attending. 4sec for a heal can reach over 300hp is unbalanced in my opinion. I understand Emanagment is conditional but 4sec is to spamable.

FoxBat · Jan 13, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

I'd be for nerfing the skill just enough that there were other viable 4v4 options. 8v8 has enough elite variety and could afford the loss, if thats the only way to fix 4v4. Ideal would be some kind of mechanic change that makes it less disparate across modes. Maybe if it healed for a bit less but evaluated the health total at the beginning of casting rather than completion for the energy gain.

Riotgear · Jan 13, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Everything about it seems unusually strong in 4v4. It heals for a ton, it's easy enough to meet conditions where it's essentially free, and it's self-castable. At least one of those three needs to be adjusted.

Patrograd · Jan 13, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

If this skill gets any kind of nerf at all will it see *any* use in GvG? I doubt it. Its borderline competitive as it is

Riotgear · Jan 13, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

If this skill gets any kind of nerf at all will it see *any* use in GvG? I doubt it. Its borderline competitive as it is

Overpowered stuff causes more problems than underpowered stuff. As much as they like to balance things around GvG, if ZB got any sort of buff, arenas would be borderline unplayable. As it stands, even if it's never seen in GvG, monks will be at no shortage of good elites.

Etrik · Jan 13, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

I Am mixed as well. Prot needed some kind of direct heal. I view it almost like an elite infuse without the sac. I honestly think it should heal for about 30hp less.and maybe to balance it out scale the percentage like 25-65% to balance the reduction out while keeping some form of Emanagment.

The recharge i feel needs attending. 4sec for a heal can reach over 300hp is unbalanced in my opinion. I understand Emanagment is conditional but 4sec is to spamable.

300? Boon? Even then it'd be about.. you'd have crap e-management with boon and no emanage elite.. :S

Ensign · Jan 13, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

If it were the best elite in arena, I would agree that the skill would need a nerf, but that's not the case. In Team Arena, you see a lot of ZB, but a good amount of Divert Hexes and the occasional Blessed Light as well...with those skills being chosen on purpose.

The main reason ZB is so hot in RA isn't even due to the advantages listed for using it as the only Monk - it's because it's the elite that gives the Monk the lowest build dependence. Most players in RA are clueless, and a vast majority of those that have some clue do nothing but chase the Monk in circles. So in many ways, you're building your Monk to beat weak players with no support of your own, and interesting elites just won't cut it.

A lot of offensive builds are weak choices in RA for many of the same reasons - they have too much build dependence and auto-lose too often for them to really be fun. The only ones that really don't suffer from that, are Reaper's Mark Necros and Zealous Benediction Monks. Either of those are good tools for carrying a mediocre team to a gladiator point. Other characters can, and will win, but you're going to lose a lot more matches to weak team composition than with one of those two.

I don't think that is a good reason to call a skill overpowered, though. Not with the randomness *and* quality of play issues in RA.

Peace,
-CxE

Thomas.knbk · Jan 13, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

The recharge i feel needs attending. 4sec for a heal can reach over 300hp is unbalanced in my opinion. I understand Emanagment is conditional but 4sec is to spamable.

300? You've got to be kidding. You don't seriously use this with Divine Boon do you?
Ensign, from experience I can say it is the best elite in arenas. It's very easy to get the bonus like 90% of the time. It also gives you the ability to spec less in divine and have 11 heal and 14 prot. That means a GoH of 114 and SoA of 8 seconds (hax!). This skill eats pressure alive, and pressure is the name of the game in both TA and RA.

Ensign · Jan 13, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I disagree. Mindless, undirected pressure is the key to RA, because there is no coordination and you can't rely on your team for much of anything. In TA, at least against good teams, you are much more likely to be overloaded by focused strategies, daze thumpers and necro hexers being the most popular.

The difference being, RA is a format where you can get away with very light removal and power healing (because your opponents are bad), but in TA the value of removal is so much higher. You can get away with ZB in TA, but it's certainly going to require Purge Signets, off-Monk draws, etc, to clean everything up. Is that better than a bit of distributed defenses and better cleaning tools on the Monk?

Peace,
-CxE

bungusmaximus · Jan 14, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Hmm, its indeed incredibly strong, but it lacks against hex-heavy teams. Holy Veil only doesnt always cut it when ur up against a spoil victor team or the like. Blessed light is at least some more nice hex removal. ZB is strong, but its very 1 dimensional imo.

Deleet · Jan 14, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I agree with what Ensign said.

ZB is very nice when you get the conditional bonus, else it's just a protective based heal other(and self). Nothing overpowered there.
It's the people who are mindless in mainly RA, do not coordinate nor do they spike or cast any really nasty hexes combined with melee pressure. So all you mainly need it basic healing. The arena makes ZB good. I still prefer my Blessed Light monk.

brad- · Jan 14, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

I dont think it needs any attention right now. One backfire or mark of subversion, along with several other hexes...non elites...can negate ZB, an elite. Or, if you talk about e-denial...the fact that you have to have 10e at all to cast it...balance should be a non issue.

It is only a topic of discussion because of the state of pvp...everyone rolls a cookie cutter something or other that doesnt usually include anything ingenious.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 14, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

I dont think it needs any attention right now. One backfire or mark of subversion, along with several other hexes...non elites...

One pre-veil or (off-monk) purge signet can negate all of those hexes.
True what bungusmaximus said though.

master_of_puppets · Jan 14, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

No, this skill definitely needs a nerf, it's just too insane in the arenas. Seriously, after this came out, monking became a lot easier. I'd say increase recharge to 6, and reduce damage by 10 maybe.

Sentao Nugra · Jan 14, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Why not leave the times the same, and change the energy gain to a % based on Protection Prayers? 1...8 with 16 giving 9 energy back sounds like just the right change to me.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 14, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentao Nugra

Why not leave the times the same, and change the energy gain to a % based on Protection Prayers? 1...8 with 16 giving 9 energy back sounds like just the right change to me.

This doesn't solve the problem. It would make it give back 1 less energy in TA (monks can use sups there), and it would still see no use in gvg...
Not that I have a better idea

Ensign · Jan 14, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

It's a one dimensional skill that's only really good in one instance - healing against pure pressure in small fights. That sums up 90% of the matches you'll have in RA. It's really depressing to see the number of RA teams that have zero tools for dealing with anything, no knockdowns, no interrupts, little shutdown or mes effects - just lots of boring damage and self heals/prots. Teams like that should lose to Zealous Benediction, every time.

If Zealous Benediction were to be touched, you'd want to add a second or two to the recharge, nothing more. But again I don't think it's neccessary, so much of its strength comes from opponents being unable to do more than c+space and try to deal damage.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Jan 14, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

This doesn't solve the problem. It would make it give back 1 less energy in TA (monks can use sups there), and it would still see no use in gvg...

I'm not gonna argue about if the skill is balanced or not (don't have much opinion on it honestly, it's nice but ZB monks are far from unbeatable since it's basically just a direct heal with emanagement included. I think Divert is more nerf-worthy than ZB personally, along with some nerf to SV ofc, cause Divert monks just prevent any kind of long lasting hex from being used out of a full hex build. Expel was good enough, i don't see why something even more powerful was needed), but saying ZB sees no use in GvG is just flatout wrong.

I see tons of ZB monks every time i obs in GvG even in top guilds. With Prot monk having trouble with their Prot because of Grenth, it's very useful for them to have a direct heal on their bar for themselves or when Gift is on recharge, and ZB also allows to go for higher prot and acts as a form of emanagement too. ZB is a good elite for all level of play. Other elites have other advantages and can fill some more utility but depending on your team build and how much utility can be easily taken care of elsewhere, having a ZB monk is sometimes the best option.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 16, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's a one dimensional skill that's only really good in one instance - healing against pure pressure in small fights. That sums up 90% of the matches you'll have in RA. It's really depressing to see the number of RA teams that have zero tools for dealing with anything, no knockdowns, no interrupts, little shutdown or mes effects - just lots of boring damage and self heals/prots. Teams like that should lose to Zealous Benediction, every time.

If Zealous Benediction were to be touched, you'd want to add a second or two to the recharge, nothing more. But again I don't think it's neccessary, so much of its strength comes from opponents being unable to do more than c+space and try to deal damage.

Peace,
-CxE

Well, the thing is that this skill is also the most used skill on TA monks also. Every team should be having an off-monk draw and an off-monk purge sig either way just because of the threat of purge sig/blind surge. Also, it's extremely easy to fit these tools in, usually a reaper's mark necro can simply bring them and you're done. There really isn't a better choice than ZB for a TA monk unless your teambuild specifically needs a divert, but besides that I don't see why you wouldn't run ZB.